Posted By Daniel W. Drezner Share

Virginia Postrel argues that fence-straddlers like me should resist the decision to despise George W. Bush because all the cool academics do it (Jacob Levy effectively defends himself against charges of trendiness). More substantively, she argues that a Kerry administration would expand the size of government even more than a second Bush term:

Vote for Kerry if you must, folks. But don't pretend you're doing it because Bush's economic policies are insufficiently free market or fiscally responsible. Kerry wouldn't be any better on economics. He'd be worse.

Tyler Cowen supplies a counterargument. Some of it is compelling, but this part baffles me:

I look less at what politicians say, and more at what kind of coalition they would have to build to rule. The high domestic spending of Bush I take as a sign of perceived political weakness ("we need to buy more allies"), rather than a reflection of Bush's ideology.

Huh? This is an administration that controlled all three branches of government for a majority of the first term -- and they felt confident enough in their political position to piss off Jim Jeffords less than three months into office. Compared to most post-war governments, the Bush administration had fewer constraints on its governing coalition. Meanwhile Robert Tagorda argues that Kerry's selection of Edwards hints at a more protectionist Kerry administration:

Whatever his overall record, Edwards is now associated with these "trade-bashing noises." Nobody believes that Edwards adds to the Democratic Party's national-security profile, right? He brings excitement, charisma, and message -- the "Two Americas," of which a skeptical attitude toward free trade is a part.

However, Ryan Lizza argues in The New Republic that this is a rhetorical smokescreen (thanks to this anonymous link):

The one major policy difference between Kerry and Edwards during the primaries was over free trade. Edwards attacked Kerry's vote for nafta, but, notably, he never called for its repeal and his criticism always smacked more of opportunism than of conviction. He didn't raise the issue strenuously until after Richard Gephardt was gone from the race, when he saw an opening with organized labor and working-class voters on Kerry's left. These attacks on free trade were an awkward fit with the rest of Edwards's middle-class, New Democrat agenda, and they will clearly not be a major feature of the Kerry-Edwards rhetoric.

The more I think about my choice, the more this election boils down to four questions:

1) Which candidate will prove most successful in prosecuting the War on Terror? 2) Which candidate is more likely to finish the job in Iraq? 3) Which do I prefer, a moderate increase in government spending accompsnied by a massive increase in the budget deficit, or a massive increase in government spending accompanied by a moderate decrease in the budget deficit? 4) Which John Kerry -- the internationalist or the populist -- would govern his foreign economic policy? Which George Bush -- the guy who talks a good game on trade or the guy who slaps steel tariffs on when he's got an 85% approval rating -- would have the upper hand in a second term?

Developing.... UPDATE: Ezra Klein gives his answers to my Four Questions. Roger L. Simon weighs in on the War on Terror and rebuts Mickey Kaus' line of argumentation. On my first question, this Kerry answer on Larry King Live is not comforting:

KING: Let's get to, first thing's first, news of the day. Tom Ridge warned today about al Qaeda plans of a large-scale attack on the United States, didn't increase the -- do you see any politics in this? What's your reaction? KERRY: Well, I haven't been briefed yet, Larry. They have offered to brief me; I just haven't had time. But all Americans are united in our efforts to defeat terrorism.

Later on, Kerry says he'll get briefed "tomorrow or the next day." On the other hand, this Washington Post story on Edwards' foreign policy background makes me believe that he does get the significance of the war on terrorism (link via Jack O'Toole). [So your qualms about the administration's competence in foreign policy have been resolved?--ed. Hardly. I remain on the fence.]

EXPLORE:FENCE-SITTING
 

JOEL B.

4:39 PM ET

July 9, 2004

So, Am I correct in assuming

So, Am I correct in assuming that ceteris parabus #3(b) includes some specter of a tax increase that was left out. I don't see how you can spend more and have a smaller deficit without such a thing, (unless #3(a) impliedly includes modest tax cuts, or perhaps AMT reform) and I think it is only appropriate to make clear that #3(b) includes a tax increase which may very well slow the growth of the economy, granted increase treasury revenues, but slow the growth of the economy nonetheless, or that 3(a) could include valuable reforms to the taxing structure.

 

SCOTT REENTS

4:44 PM ET

July 9, 2004

It's great to make an

It's great to make an issue-focused decision, but I don't think you can totally ignore intangibles, such as trust and credibility. Because you never know what new issues will arise, I think these are at least as -- perhaps more -- important than straight up ideology, effectivenss, or stand on the issues. In my mind, Bush fails miserably on the trust and credibility. He bet the farm on Iraq having WMD (and/or meaningful ties to Osama) -- and lost. How can we not hold him accountable for the billions of dollars and thousands of lives spent in a campaign whose foundations have proven to be non-existent? I can agree with you that we need a president who will "finish the job" in Iraq, but I cannot fathom supporting the guy whose strategic misjudgement (?) negligence (?) arrogance (?) deception (?) got us into this situation in the first place.

 

BRAD DELONG

4:47 PM ET

July 9, 2004

80% of the president's job is

80% of the president's job is taking care that the laws be faithfully executed, and 80% of those laws set in motion relatively centrist policies. Competence is very important, and deserves a much higher weight than you are giving it...

 

JON JUZLAK

4:49 PM ET

July 9, 2004

'1) Which candidate will

'1) Which candidate will prove most successful in prosecuting the War on Terror?'

Probably makes little difference. I would like to see a bigger effort for the truly long term portion of the war on terror.

'2) Which candidate is more likely to finish the job in Iraq?'

Probably makes little difference. The 2 candidates policies are pretty similar at this point

'3) Which do I prefer, a moderate increase in government spending accompsnied by a massive increase in the budget deficit, or a massive increase in government spending accompanied by a moderate decrease in the budget deficit?'

Given that Congress will almost certainly remain Republican, I think a Democratic President is better in terms of gridlock. I think that Kerry is enough of a gradualist that there probably is not going to be any massive increase in government spending, and there is probably going to be a mild increase in taxes (although I would probably be impacted by that).

In the Bush case, I think you would see some worthwhile tax reform and spending cuts but the deficit would continue to increase.

'4) Which John Kerry -- the internationalist or the populist -- will govern his foreign economic policy? '

Internationalist, with occasional nods to populism. His changes will be modest and incremental like a proposed tax incentive for outsourcing.

For me, the reason not to vote for Bush is simple -- his disastrous prosecution of the war in IRaq. I would probably have gone back to my traditional apolitical status (never voting) if Bush had cleaned house on the neocons, including Cheney who gave him clearly bad advice. Since he hasn't, I intend to send a message with an anti-Bush vote.

 

KEN

5:03 PM ET

July 9, 2004

"In my mind, Bush fails

"In my mind, Bush fails miserably on the trust and credibility. He bet the farm on Iraq having WMD (and/or meaningful ties to Osama) -- and lost. "

He didn't bet the farm. The farm is still there. Iraq had not yet become an imminent threat, which is exactly what Bush said, and now Iraq will never become an imminent threat.

We've still got the resources to carry on the fight, to do things such as deny nuclear weapons to Iran. Whether those resources will actually be applied in these vitally necessary tasks depends on who is President. I wouldn't bet on Kerry doing what needs to be done if I were you.

"Which do I prefer, a moderate increase in government spending accompsnied by a massive increase in the budget deficit, or a massive increase in government spending accompanied by a moderate decrease in the budget deficit?"

The long term cost of the government (and your taxes over the long term) are determined by government spending and interest. The differences between Bush's spending plans and Kerry's spending plans are such that the long term cost of the government is higher with a Kerry administration than with a Bush administration, even taking interest into account. The resources to pay for them will probably be less over the long term with a Kerry administration as well due to higher levels of regulation.

 

APPALLED MODERATE

5:06 PM ET

July 9, 2004

My thoughts on Dan's

My thoughts on Dan's questions:

#1 -- I give this one to Kerry on grounds of competence. I feel that Bush and Kerry would be forced to make roughly the same decisions (persue Osama, sweet talk allies.) Bush might be more vigorous, but his pissing off of those who would help us make his less effective.

#2 -- Bush will never pull out if he can't say mission accomplished. I think there's a 10% chance Kerry would, if it were all falling apart. I don't like that 10%, but #1 is more important to our security than #2. As a counterweight, I do not believe that Kerry is as prone towards error as Bush. Nevertheless, I think Iraq's course has been set, and what we do from here on out will have little impact on the course of things. It's up to the Iraqis now.

#3 -- I think you ignore a third possibility -- Kerry proposes massive spending increases that are successfully opposed by the GOP. McCain and his allies are budget hawks, and not big on spending. And I think they'll hold any big spending ideas up,while letting some needed rescinding of tax cuts go through. If I am forced toanswer your question -- I think it's a wash, and I wouldn't use it to determine your vote.

4. Good question. But the man who gabs about Benedict Arnold CEOs and grumbles about NAFTA on the campaign trail is going to have a hard time reversing himself when that protectionist trade bill on his desk.

I think you're going to have a tough time, Dan...

 

PRAKTIKE

5:11 PM ET

July 9, 2004

Science, health care, poverty

Science, health care, poverty issues ... who cares?

 

PANDAGON

5:23 PM ET

July 9, 2004

The Case For Change Daniel

The Case For Change

Daniel Drezner, reacting to a pile-on attempting to keep him away from Kerry, says:The more I think about my choice, the more this election boils down to four questions: 1) Which candidate will prove most successful in prosecuting the War...

 

KAREN

5:25 PM ET

July 9, 2004

Jury's still out on the WMDs.

Jury's still out on the WMDs. Didn't they remove 2 TONS of uranium from Iraq at the end of June? Didn't Iraq really try to buy uraninum from Niger acording to British intelligence?

1) Bush has killed 2/3 of al qaeda leadership. Atef is dead, KSH captured. Must find UBL/Zawhari -trying to do so now. Kerry is not serious about terrorism. Does anyone remember during the debates in the primary when he said that the threat of terrorism is exaggerated? Just yesterday, he said he didn't get briefed on the latest terrorist threat even though he was offered because he didn't have time!

2) Kerry more apt to opt out of finishing Iraq prematurely- said he prefers stability to democracy. With his pick of Edwards, he shows less seriousness. I guess charisma is more important than substance. Makes me believe more apt to follow polls for sure. Will wither under pressure.

3) Kerry could cause some gridlock if senate remains in hands of repubs but it is not certain that senate won't change hands. Kerry does plan a lot more spending than Bush has ever proposed and it would be more government funding healthcare (really bad idea) than defense. He'll kill important programs like missile defense and the bunker buster missile and probably redistribute that money to healthcare and education.

4) Business has seemed to react very negatively to the Edwards pick for VP so that can't be great. I think Kerry is going to be forced to be more protectionist.

Of course what Kerry says he will do on one day, he says the opposite the next.

 

KAREN

5:41 PM ET

July 9, 2004

One question: How do we know

One question:

How do we know Kerry is competent? He has been in the Senate for almost 20 years and doesn't have ONE important bill that he's authored?

 

APPALLED MODERATE

5:45 PM ET

July 9, 2004

Karen: Kerry's foreign

Karen:

Kerry's foreign policy people are competent, or at leat they were when they were in the Clinton administration. Bush's have proven incompetent. That's enough for a judgment.

 

KAREN

5:53 PM ET

July 9, 2004

AM: They were? How come

AM:

They were? How come al-qaeda grew during the 90s? What about all those terrorists attacks-wtc '93, Khobar towers, Cole, Embassy bombings, etc, etc.? How about the Sudanese offer of UBL? How about those three times they could have killed UBL in Afghanistan but they didn't? How about India/Pakistan both getting nukes? How about NK? Rwanda? Haiti? We are still in Kosovo but the soldiers would be home by December of that year, remember? I wouldn't agree that that team was competent.

 

KRISTJAN WAGER

5:54 PM ET

July 9, 2004

"Jury's still out on the

"Jury's still out on the WMDs. Didn't they remove 2 TONS of uranium from Iraq at the end of June? Didn't Iraq really try to buy uraninum from Niger acording to British intelligence?"

No and No.

 

PRIORITIES & FRIVOLITIES

5:58 PM ET

July 9, 2004

Anti-Bush Libertarian

Anti-Bush Libertarian Hawks

Virginia Postrel criticizes "this small demographic," which features Jacob Levy. She thinks that they're trying to "stay on the fashionable side of politics" and fooling...

 

SOMECALLMETIM

6:05 PM ET

July 9, 2004

Karen: Things like"

Karen:

Things like" competence" are always relative. If you are not yet convinced that the Bush Admin (no WMD, no relevant Iraq-Al Qaeda connection, no plan for peace, no real exit strategy in Iraq, etc.) is less competent than your left shoe, you will never be convinced. Has there ever been an Administration opposed by more well-respected experts? The scientists hate him, the economists think he's a joke, most of the polysci/fa guys think the Iraq plan was deeply flawed, etc. I mean, seriously, short of Bush getting on TV, stripping down to his underwear and declaring, "I'm for Global Thermonuclear War. Whee!," what would it take to convince you that this guy's incompetetent?

 

KAREN

6:05 PM ET

July 9, 2004

 

APPALLED MODERATE

6:09 PM ET

July 9, 2004

In the 90s,we did not believe

In the 90s,we did not believe we were at war, and as a nation we behaved accordingly. That's the simple explanation for much of your litany. As for not getting UBL, the story, if true, lays blame on Clinton, not his people.

NK? Clinton's people did a deal, and NK got a couple of nukes. Bush's people have not done a deal,and NK has about 10 nukes. I'm not sure I'd use NK as an example here.

Rwanda? OK -- fair point. But I don't see we're accomplishing a lot more in today's similar situation in the Sudan.

India got nukes in the 70s. Pakistan stole nuclear secrets in the 70s. I wouldn't lay that one on Bill's team.

OK -- now with Bush, we have allies furious at us and an Iraqi occupation where much of the loss of life seems the result of a failure to plan for more troops, and a failure tounderstand the insurgency,and a dubious attachment to the War on Terror.

I'll go with Kerry on this issue, thank yoou very much.

 

JON REEL

6:20 PM ET

July 9, 2004

Vote Kerry: 1. Terror: Bush

Vote Kerry:
1. Terror: Bush is too polarizing and his prosecution to date, while eager, has been lame.

2. Iraq: A draw. Both pray for non-jihadist strongman and get out. (Heaven help us if Bush's prayer for a democratic mideast is answered; they'd all elect mullahs or jihadists.)

3. Budget: The reality is Congress will permit a paydown but not huge programs; think Clinton & Rubin. Kerry will copy them.

4. Internationalist or populist? Pragmatist internationalist. The guy's a bore but not a fool. Look for some small-time populist sops. Departure from Clinton template? Not gonna happen.

For you to consider: the worst drag on economy will be regulatory, mostly environmental. In my view worth it, probably a minus for you.

 

KEEF

6:23 PM ET

July 9, 2004

Ken wrote: "Iraq had not yet

Ken wrote:

"Iraq had not yet become an imminent threat, which is exactly what Bush said, and now Iraq will never become an imminent threat."

On the contrary, there is a great chance that Iraq could become an imminent threat of an even nastier sort (to the US) than a tired Baathist regime.

If you aren't reading about the hotbeds of jihadis in Iraq (such as in Fallujah), then you are deliberately burying your head in the sand.

Even if the jihadis don't take hold of the country, there's a high likelihood of civil war, with consequences no one can predict. Including that jihadis may have control of a significant portion of the country.

Hence, it cannot be said that "Iraq will never become an imminent threat." It very well may be, and possibly in short order.

And, of course, all the possiblities above are brought to you courtesy George W. Bush.

Keef

 

KAREN

6:24 PM ET

July 9, 2004

AM: I myself am a scientist

AM:

I myself am a scientist and am aware that many scientists don't like Bush. So? Scientists are one of the most liberal groups around. They would most likely oppose any Republican administration. Not all economists think he's a joke. Many agree with taxcutting as stimulus, one point here is that Bush has to lower discretionary spending.

Most people thought Reagan was a dupe, too.

 

THE VOLOKH CONSPIRACY

6:28 PM ET

July 9, 2004

Fashion slave: Yes, yes, I

Fashion slave:

Yes, yes, I knew that, as Virginia Postrel notes, a bad fashion sense isn't actually any defense against a charge of acting fashionably, and that she was suggestin...

 

SETH

6:35 PM ET

July 9, 2004

Karen: As a scientist,

Karen:

As a scientist, precision must be important to you. So could you clarify whether the link you posted about Iraqi uranium concerns weapons-grade uranium, suitable for WMDs, or more commonly available low-grade uranium? If the former, this is of course of crucial importance to the debate.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/m

 

KEN

6:37 PM ET

July 9, 2004

"I think you ignore a third

"I think you ignore a third possibility -- Kerry proposes massive spending increases that are successfully opposed by the GOP. McCain and his allies are budget hawks, and not big on spending. And I think they'll hold any big spending ideas up,while letting some needed rescinding of tax cuts go through. If I am forced toanswer your question -- I think it's a wash, and I wouldn't use it to determine your vote."

Is this the same GOP that failed to successfully oppose spending increases proposed by George W Bush? Or are you figuring on a bigger GOP presence? Either way, given the same Congress, a difference in the spending proposals means a difference in the final outcome.

"On the contrary, there is a great chance that Iraq could become an imminent threat of an even nastier sort (to the US) than a tired Baathist regime.

If you aren't reading about the hotbeds of jihadis in Iraq (such as in Fallujah), then you are deliberately burying your head in the sand."

You mean the ones that got their asses handed to them a couple of months ago and scurried back to whatever hole they crawled out of?

"Even if the jihadis don't take hold of the country, there's a high likelihood of civil war, with consequences no one can predict. Including that jihadis may have control of a significant portion of the country."

The likelihood of an Iraqi civil war, already quite low, goes even lower if we take the next step and neuter the Iranians, who are backing the Iraqi troublemakers.

If Kerry tries to "stay the course" in Iraq and do nothing else, the Iranian-backed troublemakers will have a field day and do their damndest to start that civil war in Iraq. Of course, that might be Kerry's plan, since he'd get to blame it on George W. Bush.

(Yeah, we can play the conspiracy theory game too!)

 

A_RETROGROUCH

6:39 PM ET

July 9, 2004

The answer to the first

The answer to the first question depends highly upon the answer to the question: why do they hate us? The answer is not because they hate our freedom. That is a stock answer insulting to anyone with an IQ higher than their pulse. The terrorists are reacting to Israel's intransigence, brutality, and military aggression. Duh! They are also reacting to our, for lack of a better word, economic and military hegemony. I mean, our military is spread all over the world in hundreds of countries, and having a huge military presence in the Mideast really pisses a lot of people off. How would you like it if a superpower had bases in your country (and treated you like an inferior species, as so many military personnel unfortunately do)?

Does that make me anti-American? Of course not. That's simply a canard thrown by those who don't have an adequate response. Look, anyone can be a terrorist. It's a criminal act requiring the motivation, the means, and the opportunity. It deserves more than a pat response designed to placate the rubes who are paying for George's excellent adventure.

Of course Kerry recognizes the threat of terrorism. However, I think that he'll probably get more results in the "war on terror" by acting less like a cowboy than Bush. He's going to inherit a lovely mess in Iraq, but since he's less likely to irritate the EU, UN, and others, he's more likely to invite the multinational cooperation--and investment--necessary to help stabilize the country, and to give the cover we need to pull our troops out w/o allowing the place to descend into anarchy or civil war.

Given the hole the federal government is in financially, the best we're going to do over the short term is to staunch the flow of blood. Yes, he's already on record as rolling back the tax cuts for those who earn over $200K/year. And why not? They don't need the tax cut as much as the poor need medical insurance, the cost of which people like you and I already pay in insurance premiums and taxes for emergency services provided to indigent patients and others. Overall, I'd rather pay a bit more than less in order to provide services sufficient to maintain social order and health (safety and welfare). Most reasonable people understand and agree, especially if there is a rational nexus between services and taxes paid.

Finally, Kerry will be an Internationalist in his foreign policy, and that's a good thing. Any international businessman, exporter/importer, etc. understands keenly the need to have good relationships with your trading partners and customers. Bush's impacts have not been good in this area, and the businesspeople trying to close deals abroad are keely aware of this. Why this fact is not more broadly reported, I don't know, but it is not insignificant.

 

BILL SKEELS

6:42 PM ET

July 9, 2004

"Bush has killed 2/3 of al

"Bush has killed 2/3 of al qaeda leadership."

Who ran this tab? Sounds like something pulled out of thin air. Source?

 

BITHEAD

6:42 PM ET

July 9, 2004

AM, you will forgive me

AM, you will forgive me please, if after the unarguable unmitigated forign policy distater that was the Clinton MisAdministration,(Which was in fact responsible for the lead-up to 9/11) I don't stand up and cheer when you aver you'd like more of the same.

 

JASON LIGON

6:45 PM ET

July 9, 2004

I'd like to probe the

I'd like to probe the competence thing a bit.

1) Does the mere lack of agreement from allies about the war indicate incompetence, or are we just saying that the war was wrong? France, after all, offered us support in some form so long as we didn't persue another UN resolution. Are the doves really going to argue that the competent solution would have been NOT to go to the UN?

2) We have no way of writing a counter history to the prosecution of the military objectives in Iraq under a Kerry administration. One could argue that the Clinton team did just fine so long as boots were not on the ground, but failed every time boots were required to meet an objective. Or, again, are we just saying that the war was wrong?

3) It is highly speculative to argue that reconstruction would have gone glassy smooth under a different administration. Mistakes have been made, but it is very hard to point to what Kerry would have done specifically that would make things so much better.

4) Fiscally, it is probably a wash. Your choices are high taxes and high spending or high deficits and high spending.

5) Ahh, the civil liberties thing. I submit that in the wake of 9/11, the political pressure to 'do something' was so great, you don't escape some version of PATRIOT in the near term anyway. Dems are every bit the drug warriors the Repubs are. I don't see a compelling difference.

I guess my point is that often competence means not persuing MY agenda effectively. A glorious success of this administration was telling the world to shove Kyoto where it belongs, and that irritated our allies as much as the Iraq thing did. I wouldn't call that incompetence, though.

 

A_RETROGROUCH

6:45 PM ET

July 9, 2004

Speaking of the budget,

Speaking of the budget, there's a memo floating around in cyberspace that (assuming it's legit) lays out the post-election strategy of Bush to offer massive cuts to the discretionary side of the budget, no doubt in response to the massive costs of Iraq ($121 billion as of today) and the huge tax cuts. This will no doubt cause a HUGE ruckus, certainly resulting in the loss of the Senate in a few years and possibly the House. So, Bush has about two years to strip the car down to its chassis before the backlash shows results.

Frankly, by that time, I may have moved to Canada. I increasingly feel strongly that this country is becoming no longer worth defending, and I really don't like that feeling.

 

AVERAGE JOE

6:47 PM ET

July 9, 2004

Seth, honestly, I do not see

Seth, honestly, I do not see the point of the distinction. By the way, I have a great deal of scientific training, including a degree in physics from Dan D.'s own U. of Chicago, and value precision. My point is, what would Iraq be doing with several tons of uranium? Iraq is sitting on oilfields, so it does not need uranium for electrical power production. The uranium didn't get there by accident.

I have not spent a great deal of time thinking about this, but the main reason I can think of for Iraq to have several tons of uranium is for weapons production. In this case, if the uranium was indeed weapons grade, then a bomb of some sort is almost certainly floating around somewhere, as producing the weapons grade material is one of the most difficult aspects of making a nuclear weapon. If it is not weapons grade, then it merely is virtually conclusive evidence that Iraq was trying to make nuclear weapons, and we were able to shut the program down before, we hope, a weapon was produced. If the later is the case, then I am very, very glad we went into Iraq and stopped the program. If you think about, you should be glad too.

 

MARK BUEHNER

6:52 PM ET

July 9, 2004

"Kerry's foreign policy

"Kerry's foreign policy people are competent"

Ah, something new we can debate. Policy people execute and advise, they dont decide. My question is, how do we know we are going to get Clinton/Holbrooke foriegn policy, and not Carter/Vance foriegn policy? What evidence is there? All we have to go by is Kerry's record. Kerry was a major anti-war protester in Vietnam, opposed everything Reagan did in the Cold War, and voted against Gulf War 1. Does that sound hawkish and realist to anyone here?

 

KAREN

6:53 PM ET

July 9, 2004

Seth: I am a biological

Seth:

I am a biological scientist and have absolutely no expertise in this area. Totally different species from what I do. They have said enriched uranium but they don't specify how enriched. Based on the language though, they make it seem like they took serious precautions since they kept it pretty secret and we are only hearing about it after the fact. So it must have been somewhat of a concern. They obvious wanted to complete the removal before anyone found out about it being there. It could be significant. But they did find an enriching centrifuge under some rose bush in the beginning of the war, right? Also, they found those atropine injectors early on too in the war so obviously at least the Iraqi army thought there were chemical weapons that were to be used on US soldiers originally. Atropine is the antidote to the nerve gases. We'll see what this means. I just don't think the die has been cast about whether there were WMDs or not.

 

SEBASTIAN HOLSCLAW

6:59 PM ET

July 9, 2004

"Kerry's foreign policy

"Kerry's foreign policy people are competent, or at leat they were when they were in the Clinton administration."

Yikes. I'm glad I didn't bring up Clinton's foreign policy because then I would be subjected to "It isn't about Clinton". But while we are there, I would generally argue that Clinton's foreign policy was centered around the 'kick the problem a couple of years forward' principle. And I'm not sure that is so great.

As for "1) Which candidate will prove most successful in prosecuting the War on Terror?", hasn't Kerry repeatedly said that he doesn't think there really is such a war?

 

MARK IN MEXICO

7:05 PM ET

July 9, 2004

Allies? What allies? We

Allies? What allies? We haven't had any allies to speak of since the USSR went bust. Bush, Sr. put together a coalition because everyone was as petrified as we that Hussein would end up in Riyadh and control half of the world's oil. We are surrounded by enemies who fear and envy our economic power as well as a few psychos who fear (with good reason) our military power. The only way Kerry can "rebuild" a relationship with our "allies" is to bend over to accomodate them.

To a retrogrouch: Bye bye and good riddance.

 

GW

7:05 PM ET

July 9, 2004

My point is, what would Iraq

My point is, what would Iraq be doing with several tons of uranium?

From the BBC news article that you are apparently unwilling to actually read:

The 1,000 "sources" evacuated in the Iraqi operation included a "huge range" of radioactive items used for medical purposes and industrial purposes, a spokesman for the Energy Department's National Nuclear Security Administration told AP news agency.

Also, the focus on uranium is a complete red herring:

Uranium would not be suitable for fashioning [a dirty bomb], though appropriate material may have been among the other unidentified "sources".

But if you get so excited about uranium, why not discuss our own use of depleted uranium in weapons in Iraq? Shouldn't we then be concerned that terrorists are collecting the DU we pumped into Iraq? Supposedly in the 1991 war we left 320 metric tons of DU on the battlefield in Iraq. Some scientists and doctors claim this had had severe consequences for the health of many Iraqis, especially children playing with remnants of ammunitions.

But, yes, let's quickly forget all those 320 tons and instead get very excited over 1.7 (yeah!) tons of radioactive material found in Iraq.

 

KAREN

7:06 PM ET

July 9, 2004

Bill: I can't remember the

Bill:

I can't remember the source. Just something I remembered seeing/hearing somewhere. But if you read the 911 Commission staff report statement 15 under al Qaeda today they mention that since our war on terror started funding for al qaeda has decreased significantly and since they no longer have bases in Afghanistan, they are less organized and have to resort to smaller operations. Sounds like a plus, no?

 

KAREN

7:19 PM ET

July 9, 2004

Seth: I am a biological

Seth:

I am a biological scientist and have absolutely no expertise in this area. Totally different species from what I do. They have said enriched uranium but they don't specify how enriched. Based on the language though, they make it seem like they took serious precautions since they kept it pretty secret and we are only hearing about it after the fact. So it must have been somewhat of a concern. They obvious wanted to complete the removal before anyone found out about it being there. It could be significant. But they did find an enriching centrifuge under some rose bush in the beginning of the war, right? Also, they found those atropine injectors early on too in the war so obviously at least the Iraqi army thought there were chemical weapons that were to be used on US soldiers originally. Atropine is the antidote to the nerve gases. We'll see what this means. I just don't think the die has been cast about whether there were WMDs or not.

 

MARKY

7:26 PM ET

July 9, 2004

I'm surprised that none of

I'm surprised that none of the high-quality commenters on this thread have adequately rebuffed "Karen"'s claims, so I will take the task upon myself.
On the first point---the existence of the uranium that in Iraq that was shipped out of Iraq by the US in recent months: to my knowlege, ALL of this uranium was in the the known stocks at Tuwaitha, where they had lain untouched for more than a decade (IAEA inspectors found the seals intact in 2002). As a matter of fact, 90 lb. of (I believe) high-grade uranium is unaccounted for precisely because of the US invasion: after the war, the Tuwaitha site was looted, because the US did not provide security for it. I have read that the uranium at Tuwaitha would have required enriching to be suitable for bombs. To remove the material from this monitored site and begin a secret enrichment program was no doubt considered infeasible by Saddam's government. This is the reason that an attempt to secretly purchase uranium from other sources was deemed plausible---he could not use that which he already owned.
The only thing the recent uranium lift underscores is the massive incompetence of the occupation; had the Tuwaitha site been properly guarded, we would have had an accounting for the radioactive materials stored there. Of course, in terms of the danger of the spread of uranium--whether for dirty bombs or nuclear weapons---Tuwaitha is a red herring. There are much more urgent concerns about the availably of these materials in the FSU.

On the point of the Iraq/Niger/Uranium axis of unsupported speculation, let me quote from the FT article:

"But among Lord Butler's other areas of investigation was the issue of whether Iraq sought to buy uranium from Niger. People with knowledge of the report said Lord Butler has concluded that this claim was reasonable and consistent with the intelligence."

On the basis of this, you can conclude.... nothing, for now.
The report is not public, and the carefully worded sentence above does not indicate whether the original conclusion of the intelligence services was correct---merely that it was justifiable. Furthermore, the article does not suggest that Saddam actually acquired the uranium, which is surely the test. Of course Saddam had the desire for nuclear weapons, but the containment program and sanctions, as well as the Clinton bombing in 1998, had effectively de-toothed him.

Karen, you claim to be a scientist. Well, I consider myself one as well (I am a mathematician). Throwing around articles that have the proper buzzwords in them is not my idea of scientific argument; nor should it be yours.

 

A_RETROGROUCH

7:27 PM ET

July 9, 2004

Mark in Mexico: "To a

Mark in Mexico: "To a retrogrouch: Bye bye and good riddance."

And a big fat wet kiss to you too, Sweetcheeks. So good to know that the wingnuts have the courage to engage in fact-based, civil debate instead of mindless ad hominem attacks against anyone who doesn't goose-step in the same direction as you do. Are you part of the problem instead of part of the solution? And what indeed are you going to fume about next when we finally knock Bush off his throne?

 

APPALLED MODERATE

7:27 PM ET

July 9, 2004

Bithead: I will stand up and

Bithead:

I will stand up and cheer that I am not the only one on this thread who isn't afraid to bold my typos...

Ken:

It is hard for a President to argue with his own party about spending, and visa versa. It's easy to cut spending when the spending is proposed by the other party. So, yes, I believe a GOP faced with a Democrat in the White House will suddenly remember its cost conscious heritage.

Mark B:

The usual rap on Kerry is that he is Mr. Flip/flop. Are you arguing that he's pricipled and THAT'S what's scary? If Holbrookes are whispering in Kerry's ear, and as long as he does not sacrifice major popularity by doing so, I think he will follow what his advisors tell him. He's not a "I'll do what's right and damn the consequences" kind of guy.

 

GOETHEAN

7:29 PM ET

July 9, 2004

Which candidate will prove

Which candidate will prove most successful in prosecuting the War on Terror?

Coud one possibly do worse in this area than GWB?

 

AVERAGE JOE

7:43 PM ET

July 9, 2004

gw, I resent your implication

gw, I resent your implication that I did not read the article. I did read it. If you look at it closely, you will note that the 1.77 tons of uranium is mentioned as being separate from the "about 1,000 sources" of radioactive material for "a 'huge range' of radioactive items used for medical purposes and industrial purposes." Here is the full quote:

Along with 1.77 tons of enriched uranium, about 1,000 "highly radioactive sources" were also removed.

Thus, the question remains, what was Iraq planning to do "with 1.77 tons of enriched uranium." They would not get anything remotely resembling "enriched uranium" (to quote from the BBC story again) from DU shells. You will also note that although the uranium is indeed a "red herring" for a dirty bomb, the BBC story is agnostic about the possible use of the other radioactive sources for a dirty bomb.

 

WVMCL

7:45 PM ET

July 9, 2004

Someone said that Iraq can

Someone said that Iraq can now never become a threat to the U.S.

Quite the contrary. Iraq was not a serious threat before the invasion. Now the lid has been taken off. The most serious threat to U.S. national security for the foreseeable future is stateless fanatical Islamic terrorism. There was little or none of that in Saddam's Iraq. Now there is, and there will almost certainly be more coming.

On top of that, the whole Iraq episode will be an albatross around our necks for many years to come: overextending our military, inspiring fanatical hatred of the U.S. across that Islamic world, and draining financial resouces that could be used to make us stronger against terrorism and other threats. Bush took a country that wasn't a threat to us and turned it into one.

 

A_RETROGROUCH

7:48 PM ET

July 9, 2004

OK, scientists, what volume

OK, scientists, what volume does 1.77 tons of enriched uranium fill, and what are the non-military uses of such material?

And how much enriched uranium does Israel have, and what percentage of this has been created for/diverted to military uses? I'll betcha it's a lot more than 1.77 tons.

 

MARK BUEHNER

7:48 PM ET

July 9, 2004

"The usual rap on Kerry is

"The usual rap on Kerry is that he is Mr. Flip/flop. Are you arguing that he's pricipled and THAT'S what's scary? "

AM, his rhetoric flip flops, but his default position is pretty obvious. All things being equal he's a dove who tends to believe we bring bad things on ourselves. True, above all, he's a politician yes, no mystery there. But a president has to make snap decisions and shape his administration to his ideals. There wont always be time for focus groups. If Iran grabs a peice of Iraq and announces it has a nuclear bomb, decisions need to be made in minutes and seconds. There isnt always time to consult Jaques Chirac.
Besides that, you cant finesse every situation. Look at Iraq, we played footsie with the world for over a decade until Bush cut the Gordian knot. Does Kerry have the courage to do that if necessary (even if you dont think Iraq was necessary, surely there are forseeable situations where it would be necessary)? I look at Kerry, and I simply cant find a man who will say damn the torpedoes, _if necessary_. Better to have a president who does it too much than one who wont do it at all.

 

UNINSPIRED

7:54 PM ET

July 9, 2004

1. Bush has been and would

1. Bush has been and would remain OBL's best recruiter.
2. In Iraq Job One is elections. Unlikely that an elected government would want a continued US troop presence. Iraqis are already so much in control it's hard to see either B or K having more than a marginal effect. If skill and finesse are what matter, Bush's record is mixed at best.
3. Doubt your notion of a massive increase in government spending. Kerry will confine himself to his health care plan financed by a rescinding of the tax breaks for the top 1%. Evidence: what Clinton did + what Kerry says. EVen the Democratic platform won't have big spending proposals except (a big exception, but a sensible one) for health care.
Bush will for sure make his tax cuts permanent--decrease revenues yet further. His spending has been generous and the political configuration if he wins will remain the same.

 

AVERAGE JOE

8:00 PM ET

July 9, 2004

In the past few comments I

In the past few comments I have seen the following remarks:

From the BBC news article that you are apparently unwilling to actually read

and

Karen, you claim to be a scientist. Well, I consider myself one as well (I am a mathematician). Throwing around articles that have the proper buzzwords in them is not my idea of scientific argument; nor should it be yours.

and

So good to know that the wingnuts have the courage to engage in fact-based, civil debate instead of mindless ad hominem attacks against anyone who doesn't goose-step in the same direction as you do.

In the last quote the empahsis is mine, not the commenters. The first of these comments was directed at me and I rebutted the quoted accusation. This site had a post a couple of days ago about civility in political debate. Given that I have just gleaned my examples from a few comments on one of the most civil and high quality sites on the web, indeed seems to indicate that political debate could easily become more civil. I am particularly alarmed by the number of comments that are condescending and the number of comments that make unwarrented assumptions about other commenters. These are not the tactics of people who with to debate issues.

 

BITHEAD

8:02 PM ET

July 9, 2004

As regards the rumor of

As regards the rumor of massive domestic cuts, well, let's see what he's done so far...

Non-Defense, Non-Homeland Discretionary spending under George W. Bush

15 percent in 2001 (Proposed by President Clinton)
6 percent in 2002
5 percent in 2003
4 percent in 2004
0.5 percent for 2005

I fail to see this as a bad thing.

 

REDUCTIONIST

8:09 PM ET

July 9, 2004

FOREIGN POLICY. "The war

FOREIGN POLICY. "The war wasn't fought in order to bog down US forces while enhancing Iranian influence in the Persian Gulf, but that's what it did and that's what's important."
Doesn't Yglesias here sum up Bush's accomplishments quite accurately? Why vote for more of that?
DOMESTIC POLICY. It's insurance for every kid + government reinsurance to provide catastrophic coverage and a Clinton like rescinding of Bush's cuts for the top 1% v. a social security reform that reduces revenues a sixth, more tax cuts, and more spending.
But it's doubtful the Republican House will give Kerry a health care program he can sign, let alone the tax cut.

 

CARY_IN_TN

8:10 PM ET

July 9, 2004

Daniel, The number one

Daniel,

The number one reason to not support Bush is the ill-adviser Iraqi adventure. Was Saddam Hussein a
bad man? Yes.

Was a change in Iraq policy called for? Yes. (Cuba,too)

Was an invasion the way to go? No, Hell no.
One very important reason to forego war is the cost involved. I am speculating that before this is all said and done we will have spent at least a Trillion (12 zeros) handing a third world hellhole from one formerly US-backed repressive state to another. How many missions to mars will that buy you, I wonder. What hell, why not use it to pay off some of the debt?

This is the surest course to an inevitable correction in the market of global power. American hegemony, and possibly, it's very existance as a dominant player in the world are endangered by the blunders of this administration.

Think about it,
cary

Think about

 

GW

8:13 PM ET

July 9, 2004

Average Joe: Thus, the

Average Joe: Thus, the question remains, what was Iraq planning to do "with 1.77 tons of enriched uranium."

First, my apologies, I did indeed lump the uranium and the 1000 other sources together where the BBC article did not do that.

Your question has essentially been answered already by marky. Some more background and details about uranium grades is here and here.

The critical paragraphs:

the United States informed the atomic agency June 30 that about 1.8 tons of uranium, enriched to a level of 2.6%; 6.6 pounds of low-enriched uranium; and about 1,000 highly radioactive sources had been transferred June 23

Compare with:

By international convention, uranium enriched to less than 20-percent U-235 is classified as LEU that is not useful in making fission weapons.

Before another misunderstanding arises, this means that ALL of the 1.8 tons of uranium was low-enriched uranium or LEU (anything under 20 % U-235 counts as LEU). What's not clear is why the 6.6 pounds are separated in the report as LEU since the rest is also LEU. It is possible that there is a mistake in the reporting. (Evidently the AP journalist who put this together was too lazy to look up the definition of LEU.)

Oh, and here, for laughs, is how the Boston Globe managed to mangle this story:

U.S. transferred nearly 2 million tons of uranium from Iraq to U.S. without U.N. authorization

Notice how "metric" has become "million" in the headline (but not in the text).

Sigh. (Can we just fire all the journalists and start over?)

 

Daniel W. Drezner is professor of international politics at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University.

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